Pronunciation (split from “Most widely used projections”)

General discussion of map projections.
PeteD
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:59 am

Pronunciation (split from “Most widely used projections”)

Post by PeteD »

quadibloc wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 7:56 pm But in Russian, the final letter "v" is pronounced as "f" - well, at least, if it's not palatalized. Since, in English, a single "f" at the end of the word, as in the word "of", is usually pronounced as v, it's necessary to double the f in order to ensure that the name is pronounced correctly.
It's interesting that a few days after discussing pronunciation, I stumbled across your phonemic alphabet for the Savard idiolect.

I know it's off-topic, but there's no comments section on your website and I doubt this will generate enough replies to warrant its own thread on this forum, so I'll just post a few comments here.
I rather suspect that Mr. Shaw, and the authors of some introductory books on foreign languages, pronounced the word "father" in a manner quite different from that in which I pronounce that word. I pronounce the a in father as I would the o in often, and not as the a in apple, which seems to be what at least some of these authors are attempting to indicate.
I've never heard any native English speaker pronounce the "a" in "father" the same as the "a" in "apple". I suspect that you and Bernard Shaw would both pronounce "father" in a similar way but that he would use a different vowel for the "o" in "often" – one that has been lost in accents having the father–bother merger, which constitute "the great majority of North American accents" according to Wikipedia. Assuming the Shaw Alphabet is based on the Received Pronunciation of southern England (despite the fact that Bernard Shaw originally came from Ireland), then the "a" in "father" would also be used for the "a" in "bath", "path", "grass", "pass", "sample", "ask", "master", "castle" and "nasty", for which you (and I, coming from the English Midlands rather than the South) would use the "a" in "apple", and I believe this is the source of the confusion.

I notice that you also use this vowel for the "aw" in "awning" and the "a" in "ball", meaning you also have the cot–caught merger, which is "typical of most Canadian ... English dialects" according to Wikipedia. Whoever wrote the remake of the film "Alfie" must have also had the cot–caught merger because there's a scene where someone asks Alfie what rhymes with "Blossom" and he replies "awesome" despite Jude Law's pronunciation of the two words being very different.

For me, the "a" in "father", the "o" in "often" and the "au" in "caught" are all very different from each other, but having a non-rhotic accent, I lack the distinction that you have between the "a" in "father" and the "ar" in "farther" and between the "au" in "caught" and the "our" in "court". These are the father–farther and caught–court mergers. I always thought that the joke
What do you call a one-eyed dinosaur?
Doyathinkhesaurus!
didn't really work in rhotic accents because "saurus" and "saw us" are pronounced differently, but it's told in Jurassic Park by a kid with a rhotic accent.

I was surprised to read that you use the long "ee"/"ea" sound of "bean" in the "ing" of "ring" and "sailing". I've never heard any native English speaker talk like that, though it's very common for native speakers of languages that lack the distinction between long and short vowels, such as the Romance languages, when speaking English.

Finally, it's interesting that your idiolectic pronunciation "rithim" (as opposed to the more standard "rithm" with only one vowel or "rithəm" where the second vowel is a schwa) appears to have influenced your non-phonetic spelling of the word and caused you to add a second "y".
Milo
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Re: Most widely used projections

Post by Milo »

Since we're apparently talking about language now:
Atarimaster wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 5:44 am
PeteD wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:46 amWhat about the diaeresis over the I? Does that come from the French transliteration? I don't know anything about Russian, but I always assumed the correct pronunciation was "eye-toff". Is that right?
I guess the correct spelling is “ah-eetoff” – that’s what the diaeresis suggests in German, and Winkel must have suggested this spelling for a reason. Eckert in 1906 and Zöppritz/Bludau in 1912 who wrote “Aitow”. Even if the diaeresis originates in the french transliteration, I doubt that Winkel would have used it if the correct pronunciation was "eye-toff".
Wait, does German use diaresis? I know that "i" can't take an umlaut, but even so, using the same symbol for both umlaut and diaresis sounds confusing.
PeteD wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:46 amI always thought that the joke
What do you call a one-eyed dinosaur?
Doyathinkhesaurus!
didn't really work in rhotic accents because "saurus" and "saw us" are pronounced differently, but it's told in Jurassic Park by a kid with a rhotic accent.
The "r" gets in the way, sure, but I pronounce the vowels as matching. That's "close enough" for a pun, which quite often involve words that don't sound perfectly the same.

(Well, I pronounce the vowels as matching in English. Dinosaur names aren't really English, and when pronouncing them in a vacuum I'm inclined to stick closer to Latin pronounciation, which causes the "au" to be pronounced as English "ow".)

And on second thought, maybe not a perfect match in English either. The "saw" fits, sure, but I think "us" is slightly more schwa-like in "saurus" than "saw us". (A sound name that annoys me because the shva in modern Hebrew isn't usually pronounced as a schwa, by the way...) If I had to make this joke, I would probably deliberately pronounce "rus" slightly differently from usual to emphasize the pun.
Atarimaster
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Re: Most widely used projections

Post by Atarimaster »

Milo wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:25 am Wait, does German use diaresis?
Not “officially” – e.g. any German dictionary will give you the spelling Aleuten instead of Alëuten. But it’s not uncommon to use the diaresis in foreign names to indicate that it’s not pronounced like the German diphthong.

Milo wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:25 amI know that "i" can't take an umlaut, but even so, using the same symbol for both umlaut and diaresis sounds confusing.
Therefore, the diaresis is usually set only set on e and i.
PeteD
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Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:59 am

Re: Most widely used projections

Post by PeteD »

Milo wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:25 am The "saw" fits, sure, but I think "us" is slightly more schwa-like in "saurus" than "saw us".
The "us" in "saurus" is definitely schwa-like, but as long as the "us" in "saw us" isn't emphasized, it can be schwa-like too, i.e. "Do you think he saw us?" as opposed to "not having seen" can be (but isn't necessarily) schwa-like, whereas "Do you think he saw us?" as opposed to "having seen them instead" can't be (unless you speak with a strong Midlands or northern English accent that never underwent the foot–strut split).
Milo
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Re: Most widely used projections

Post by Milo »

PeteD wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:49 amunless you speak with a strong Midlands or northern English accent that never underwent the foot–strut split
Actually, that's an excellent example. I pronounce the "u" in "saurus" as in "foot", and the "u" in "saw us" as in "strut".
PeteD
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Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:59 am

Re: Most widely used projections

Post by PeteD »

So do most speakers most of the time, but I still maintain that the "u" in "saw us" can also be pronounced as in "foot" as long as it's not emphasized (and that it therefore doesn't get in the way of the joke like the "r" does for rhotic accents).
Milo
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Re: Most widely used projections

Post by Milo »

You must be pronouncing "foot" differently than I do. Or "us".
PeteD
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:59 am

Re: Most widely used projections

Post by PeteD »

Probably "us" but only when it's not emphasized and even then not all the time. I'd be more likely to do it when talking quickly and less likely to do it in formal contexts. In any case, even if the schwa-like pronunciation of the "u" in "us" isn't very common, the fact that it's possible is enough for it not to get in the way of the joke.
PeteD
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Re: Most widely used projections

Post by PeteD »

quadibloc
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Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:28 am

Re: Most widely used projections

Post by quadibloc »

PeteD wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:46 am or "rithəm" where the second vowel is a schwa
I don't want to stray too far off topic here, but I will note that I basically don't acknowledge the existence of the schwa as a vowel in English. Instead, I treat that vowel, when it is indicated in a dictionary, as some short vowel, such as a short u, a short i, or a short e, still fully sounded.
Milo wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 1:27 am Sure, usually you'd aim to have about the level of detail that the human eye can make out, because more than that is overkill, but it's not like everyone's eyes are identical, so it's good to have a little overkill just to be on the safe side.
When it comes to computer screens, of course, it''s only a very recent development that we now use screens with such fine resolutions that individual pixels aren't clearly visible - and where letters are displayed with grey-scale pixels on their edges to increase the effective resolution of type on the screen even further.

Apple's Retina displays started this trend, and then Microsoft Windows eventually added ClearType and was modified to support higher resolutions.
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