A flawed "cartometry"

General discussion of map projections.
Atarimaster
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Re: A flawed "cartometry"

Post by Atarimaster »

RogerOwens wrote: For an equal-area world map needed for precise observations and measurements about places close together, or for relatively-distant viewing, I'd choose Hatano, or maybe Urmayev II.
Regarding Hatano:
Yes, I like the idea of asymmetric projections, given the fact that landmasses are unequally distributed over the hemispheres and that on many maps, distortions of the landmasses only are more interesting than across the entire globe. That’s why I like the Hatano, or daan’s 2011 projection.

That’s also why I still think that Canters W10 to W14 (Dr. Böhm’s naming) or Fig. 5.13 to Fig. 5.17 (numbers of figures in Canter’s textbook) or "Low-error polyconic projection obtained through non-constrained optimisation" to "Low-error polyconic projection with twofold symmetry, equally spaced parallels and a correct ratio of the axes" (Canter’s descriptive but somewhat awkward naming) would make a great addition to Geocart.
W13/W14 are, in my opinion, nice projections for general use world maps, while W10, W11 and W12 are interesting from a more, hmmm, academic point of view.



Regarding Urmayev:
Ummm, probably just a typo, but Urmayev II isn’t equal-area, although it’s a lot closer to true equivalence than any other compromise (or aphylactic or "neither conformal nor equal area") projection I remember. It’s Urmayev I that’s truly equivalent.

… and, by the way, I think Urmayev I actually is Wagner I, because Wagner already did provide the means to change the length of the pole line (and the ratio of the main axes on top of that), at least in his 1949 textbook (as I’ve said before, I’ve never read the original introduction of 1932). Granted, you can easily fail to see that because Wagner only mentioned that briefly before he starts to present the intermediate steps (using the "harcoded" value of 1/2 for the ratio of pole line/equator) that lead to the final projection formular. Urmayev apparently emphasized this bit, as did Canters in "The World in Perspective".

RogerOwens wrote: No doubt Huffnagel is great for PhD mathematicians. I doubt that it can be of much value or interest to the rest of us, as a published map.
I have to disagree here.
Especially if you’re not interested in the mathematics, or if you (like myself) are incapable of developing projection formulae, customizable projections like Hufnagel, the generalized Wagner or the sinucyli projections offer you the chance not only to investigate possibilities, but also (in case you use an appropriate map projection software) to produce and, if you want, print a full-fledged map adjusted to your needs and preferences; and you don’t even need to understand the mathematics behind it.

Of course, if you rather want to present a map projection (in contrast to a ready-made map) with certain advantages that others might adopt and e.g. add to their own map projection software, it is wise come up with a dedicated formula, even if you used one of the customizable projections (or other tools, like the creators of Equal Earth did) to approach to the final result.

Kind regards,
Tobias
RogerOwens
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Re: A flawed "cartometry"

Post by RogerOwens »

Hi Tobias--

The first thing that I want to say is that it has occurred to me that something that I said could have implied different from what I meant:

In my first version of my most recent post (which I've since edited), I said:
I doubt that it can be of much value or interest to the rest of us, as a published or posted map.
When I said "posted", I was referring to posting map on the wall of one's house, apartment, office, business, etc. I was not criticizing the posting of it here. later, when it occurred to me that "post" could be construed to mean a forum post, as well as posting on a wall, I deleted the word "post" from that message.

Of course the superposition of Equal-Earth with the Hufnagel showed how surprisingly well Hufnagel can approximate Equal-Earth.

Still, surely an equal-area line-pole map with elliptical edges could also be made to, well enough, resemble the popular Robinson, even though of course elliptical edges don't have anything like the flexibility of Hufnagel.

Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean that first version of that message the way it might have sounded. I was just talking about Hufnagel's use as a wall-map, or publication in books.

I wanted to get this sent before replying to your subsequent message.

Michael Ossipoff
RogerOwens
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Re: A flawed "cartometry"

Post by RogerOwens »

Tobias--
For an equal-area world map needed for precise observations and measurements about places close together, or for relatively-distant viewing, I'd choose Hatano, or maybe Urmayev II.
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Regarding Hatano:
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Yes, I like the idea of asymmetric projections, given the fact that landmasses are unequally distributed over the hemispheres and that on many maps, distortions of the landmasses only are more interesting than across the entire globe. That’s why I like the Hatano, or daan’s 2011 projection.
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Yes, and its longer pole-lines improve the min(min scale) in (say) the +/- 70 latitude band.
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That’s also why I still think that Canters W10 to W14 (Dr. Böhm’s naming) or Fig. 5.13 to Fig. 5.17 (numbers of figures in Canter’s textbook) or "Low-error polyconic projection obtained through non-constrained optimisation" to "Low-error polyconic projection with twofold symmetry, equally spaced parallels and a correct ratio of the axes" (Canter’s descriptive but somewhat awkward naming) would make a great addition to Geocart.
W13/W14 are, in my opinion, nice projections for general use world maps
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I’ll check those out. I’ve been looking at prospects for line-pole equal-area pseudocylindricals with better min(min scale) in the +/- 70 lat band. (lat 70 is close to the northern limit of West-European continental land. Of course in the south the inhabited land doesn’t get that near-polar).
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…for use when relatively distant viewing, or examination of small regions or close-together places is needed. Of course those things aren’t generally needed, outside of classrooms, which is why I best like Mollweide for an equal-area world map.
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And some improvement in min(min scale) in +/- lat 70 can be gotten by using Mollweide in two circles instead of in one ellipse. …Mollweide interrupted on 2 meridians instead of just one.
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And of course there’s another thing:
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If you’re interested in precise measurements or observations in a tiny region, then you probably don’t need for the same map to show accurate area relations over the whole map. In that case, then it’s relevant that Mercator and the popular compromise-Cylindricals have a higher min(min scale) in the +/- 70 band. …and a high mean min(min scale).
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…facilitating close measurements and observations in tiny regions or between closely-spaced places.
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So, other than for distantly-viewed classroom equal-area maps, a Mollweide and a Mercator serve the needs for equal-area, conformality (for its uniform scale in all directions at each point), and precise measurements and observations in small regions.
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Regarding Urmayev:
Ummm, probably just a typo, but Urmayev II isn’t equal-area
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I just assumed that Urmayev II was equal-area. …maybe because it’s relatively close to it. Looking at Urmayev I and II at GeoCart, I preferred the look of Urmayev II, because of its better-shaped Greenland. I just assumed that Urmayev II was equal-area.
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If Urmayev I, and not Urmayev II, is equal-area, then I’d have to re-assess my judgment about the choice of Urmayev as a high min(min scale) map in lat +/- 70 whose central-meridian shapes aren’t too bad.
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… and, by the way, I think Urmayev I actually is Wagner I, because Wagner already did provide the means to change the length of the pole line (and the ratio of the main axes on top of that), at least in his 1949 textbook (as I’ve said before, I’ve never read the original introduction of 1932).
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I didn’t know that. In fact, I didn’t have any information about the Urmayev maps, other than the images. So Urmayev I is sinusoidal at its edges?
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I guess what I was considering was the merits of an elliptical-edges flat-polar equal-area pseudocylindrical with a larger (pole-line/equator) ratio. …if there’s one that greatly improves min(min scale) in lat +/- 70, but without unacceptable central-meridian shape-proportions.
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Do you know of such a map, with (pole-line/equator) ratio higher than those of Hatano (but less than Cylindrical)?
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RogerOwens wrote:
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No doubt Huffnagel is great for PhD mathematicians. I doubt that it can be of much value or interest to the rest of us, as a published map.
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I have to disagree here.
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Especially if you’re not interested in the mathematics
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True, one can be interested instead in the information in the maps. After all, the information is there, and of interest in itself, regardless of how the map was made.
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But, as an additional interesting subject, I just mention that all the equal-area pseudocylindricals with elliptical (including circular) edges…
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…including Mollweide, Eckert IV, Wagner IV, and Hatano…
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…have construction-derivation explanations that are explainable with reference only to geometry. …where the whole derivation is visibly shown on a geometrical diagram.
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The geometrical derivation of Cylindrical Equal Area can be part of the geometrical derivation of the elliptical-edge equal-area pseudocylindricals, making a derivation of the ellipse-edge equal-area pseudocylindricals that’s entirely geometrical.
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Or, alternatively, it can also be geometrically shown that sine(x) is the function that has cosine(x) as its instantaneous rate-of-change. …as part of an alternative geometrical demonstration for the derivation of the elliptical-edge equal-area pseudocylindricals.
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My point is just that, as an additional interesting subject, geometrical derivation of the ellipse-edge equal-area pseudocylindricals is available, accessibly-visible as geometric diagrams.
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No one should believe that the derivation of those maps is accessible only to mathematicians.
And of course it isn’t even necessary to actually derive the formulas, though they could be derived via the geometrical diagrams mentioned above. Merely briefly cursorily looking-over the geometrical diagram derivation would be enough to satisfy oneself that one had seen how the derivation is done.
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I’m not saying that you should be interested in that, or that you need it—because of course the maps’ information is available without pursuing that derivation subject. I’m just saying that, if you’re curious about or interested in the derivation, it’s accessible.
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Of course, aside from that, it’s also true that Mercator constructed his map numerically, by spacing each next nearby parallel so as to make the north-south scale equal to the east-west scale at that latitude.
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So that construction method was good enough for that important nautical navigational map.
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Of course, his same numerical construction method can be used to construct any equal-area pseudocylindrical, spacing each next nearby parallel so as to make the north-south scale proportional to the reciprocal of the east-west scale at that latitude. (e.g. If E-W scale is double the equatorial scale, then make the N-S scale half the equatorial scale) …meaning that those maps have a construction-method that we all know about.
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Michael Ossipoff
Atarimaster
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Re: A flawed "cartometry"

Post by Atarimaster »

For the lack of time, just two short notes…

RogerOwens wrote:
That’s also why I still think that Canters W10 to W14 (…)
I’ll check those out.
In order to avoid misunderstandings:
The Canters projections I mentioned are neither pseudocylindrical nor equal-area. They merely came to my mind while talking of asymmetry, because W10 and W11 are asymmetric.

RogerOwens wrote: I guess what I was considering was the merits of an elliptical-edges flat-polar equal-area pseudocylindrical with a larger (pole-line/equator) ratio. …if there’s one that greatly improves min(min scale) in lat +/- 70, but without unacceptable central-meridian shape-proportions.
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Do you know of such a map, with (pole-line/equator) ratio higher than those of Hatano (but less than Cylindrical)?
Only in theory.
Wagner allowed the adjustment of the pole line length for all his projections, including Wagner IV. But to my knowledge, there’s no implementation available in any map projection software, and not even a single image of "Wagner IV with a longer pole line".
daan
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Re: A flawed "cartometry"

Post by daan »

Atarimaster wrote:
RogerOwens wrote: I guess what I was considering was the merits of an elliptical-edges flat-polar equal-area pseudocylindrical with a larger (pole-line/equator) ratio. …if there’s one that greatly improves min(min scale) in lat +/- 70, but without unacceptable central-meridian shape-proportions.
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Do you know of such a map, with (pole-line/equator) ratio higher than those of Hatano (but less than Cylindrical)?
Only in theory.
Wagner allowed the adjustment of the pole line length for all his projections, including Wagner IV. But to my knowledge, there’s no implementation available in any map projection software, and not even a single image of "Wagner IV with a longer pole line".
The ever-flexible Tobler hyperelliptical to the rescue. With k = 2 and α = 0, the meridians will be portions of ellipses, with the pole-line width adjustable via γ. Scale x and y inversely proportional to each other to taste.

— daan
Atarimaster
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Re: A flawed "cartometry"

Post by Atarimaster »

daan wrote: The ever-flexible Tobler hyperelliptical to the rescue. With k = 2 and α = 0, the meridians will be portions of ellipses, with the pole-line width adjustable via γ. Scale x and y inversely proportional to each other to taste.
Great, thank you!
As I’ve said before, it’s always amazing to see what the hyperelliptical can do if you know which parameters will work! :)
That’s even better than the idea I had in the meantime, which was to use the generalized Wagner using parameters that create straight parallels.
RogerOwens
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Re: A flawed "cartometry"

Post by RogerOwens »

Tobias and daan--

Thanks for the information about the flexible projection-systems. It would be great if a strongly Robinson-resembling equal-area pseudocylindrical, however found and constructed, could have the near-universal publication-status of Robinson.

...even though something more like Hatano can have better min(min scale) in the +/- 70 lat band, and even though Mollweide adequately serves the equal-area purpose for most ordinary reference instances, especially if bigger maps are on the wall too, for when close precise reference is needed. An equal-area Robinson-looking map with Robinson's current wide-use would be a good thing.

(But I have to say that it would be good if it's easy to convert between latitude and Y-coordinate, other than by formulas whose derivation isn't easily explained.)

Michael Ossipoff
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